Category: philosophy/religion topics
This morning I was woken up by religious sales people, Jehovah witnesses to be exact. Of course they dragged me into an hour long debate, even though I said I was not interested. I took many things away from this conversation, one such thing is how they were getting annoyed as I kept refuting their claims.
I also noticed how these two men could not understand the difference between evidence and subjective opinion.
I kept asking for proof of their god, all they could say was look around you, look at the trees. After which I kept responding that the comment was based in subjective opinion, not evidence. They seemed to ignore any points I made about the bible coming from older religious myths. When I mentioned Noah's flood and the epic of Gilgamesh they quickly changed the subject, these two men did the same when I mentioned contradictions in the bible, or how the bible was historically inaccurate.
We also discussed the testing of Abraham. The mental gymnastics these guys used to justify it just dumbfounded me. Their response was that god could “choose to not know something”. According to these men's logic, god could choose at will to not know something, He could “choose” to be willfully ignorant. According to these guys, god chose to not know that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, as well as not knowing Abraham's faith. I honestly laughed out loud, and even told him his mental gymnastics were astounding. I also responded telling him that makes no sense, If god can “forget” then he's not all knowing. I also asked what point would this test prove? They had no answer.
We discussed how god has ordered the slaughter of men, women children and babies. They first acted in disbelief, then when I explained further they said that it was punishment for non-belief. I asked if it was okay for a parent to torture a child as punishment, they of course said no it wasn't. What astounded me was, even after I pointed out atrocities ordered by their god, they still referred to him as a “loving creator”. When I asked why is it okay for your god to do the same they replied “cuz he is the creator”. They seemed to get annoyed when I said he didn't create me, my parents did.
These men also could not comprehend the idea that a “loving” god would not commit, or order the atrocities that the christian god has.
I pointed out that all kinds of atrocities have been committed in the name of god, they corrected me with “No. in the name of religion”. Then I had to explain that they were only following their books instructions. I then turned it around on them citing that you don't see atheists killing in the name of science. Nor do you see atheists killing people cuz they have differing beliefs, yet you see the religious do it every day. I pointed out some examples, and I could tell these men were feeling uncomfortable and they changed the subject rather quickly.
Lastly. When I said god or jesus as an exclamation, they didn't seem to understand what that meant. I tried explaining a few times that I was not invoking their god, but using it as an exclamation, much like when someone says fuck, or damn.
I noticed a lot of willful ignorance and just a general lack of interest in anything other then their book.
The whole conversation left me feeling rather annoyed at their blatant logical fallacies, and their willful ignorance. Even after pointing out to them "God did it" Doesn't work for me, the still kept pushing the idea.
I will say this though. They were polite.
All of this after having been woken up from a sound sleep? And remembering everything said too? I have to hand it to you, that's pretty impressive. They certainly had some ... special ideas, that's for sure. Just goes to show how differently people can believe in the same thing. I myself would have had vastly different answers, as I'm sure would a Baptist or a Catholic. I've had a couple of debates with Jahova's Witnesses in my life. They certainly are a unique branch of the faith. THough, some would say the same of mine.
Good job there. Many people simply turn them away, not realizing they'll only come back with a few friends next time around. If you scare them off, give them an experience they won't forget, and not in a good way, either, they'll be sure to avoid your place from then on. At least, that has been my experience so far, anyway.
In any event, no matter what you believe, advertising your religion like a telemarketer tries to sell auto insurance is certainly not the way to bring others to your faith.
I would have had a porno on and told them there's an orgie raging and everyone's undressed. That or throw on some slayer.
hahaha! Yes!
To be honest Guardian I have forgotten most of the convo. Those are just the major points that I can remember.
personally, I wouldn't have wasted my time. however, I wholeheartedly agree with the poster that said having a porno on would've been perfect.
hmm... sounds like an interesting experience indeed, though it sounds like you handled the situation pretty well. and, even though you and those guys obviously had very different views on religion, you were still able to have an intelligent conversation about it without any rudeness or disrespect on either side. Most people would not be able to do that.
ah, the irony...
I don't bother answering the door unless I'm expecting someone.
Sometimes that isn't enough for them to leave you alone. They may, for awhile, but until you've absolutely convinced them that trying to sell their religion to you isn't worth their time, they'll always come back.
I'm amused by the Kevin Bloody Wilson reference.
I don't imagine it's very easy for them either. Going to someone's house, knowing full well the bitter welcome they might recieve. We compare missionaries to salesmen quite often. Yet salesmen are often treated better. Ironic, given how missionaries aren't asking for money. And if they are, there's a real problem.
I had an encounter with a couple of JW guys once. I actually wanted to see what their audio literature was so I said I'd take some CDs if they were able to burn copies, which they did. I listened and it wasn't all that interesting since I was atheist anyhow. They were trying to push the persecution complex though which made me lose respect for them. So anyway, they came back for a follow-up and I returned their CDs to them and said I really wasn't a religious person at all and I was happy with that and asked them to put me on their do-not-knock list and haven't heard a thing from those fellers since.
What do you mean by persicution complex in this case?
There is a wonderful video on youtube where a guy from Australia whose name escapes me right now, goes to people's doors and tries to tell them about Atheism. He does it in Utah I believe, and you'd be amazed what kind of response I get. I'll see if I can find a link and post it.
That's great. Now let's have atheist missionaries going from country to country, preaching the bad news.
Just the whole bit about Christianity being under attack I believe, I don't have the actual text on me.
I think such a person would be laying their life on the line. However, you should perhaps shoot some video of any exorcism rituals they might try to put you through to take the devil out of you.
If it were me I'd threaten to call the police if they refused to leave.